Log In

Animal Handling Changes

20 Dec 2017, 11:40 pm (Edited 21 Dec 2017, 12:23 am)
Please read all of the below before posting!

We're currently discussing ways we can improve the animal handling systems the game currently has (or if they need improvement at all).

I'd like to be as concise as possible here, so I won't get into full details on each potential tweak or overhaul until we've decided, as a community, on an appropriate course of action.

Potential Overhauls

1) Pets require a male and female to breed - when you breed two pets, you pick an outcome, and it requires a number of consumables to achieve. The exact materials required would depend on the pet family in question. This system removes a large chunk of the RNG entirely.

2) Pets roll for randomised stats that influence their generation in some way; they would also provide career buffs, and potentially create offspring that does not match the parents. This system introduces a level of transparency within the RNG.

3) Pets have a "happiness" value that influences their breeding chances. Animal Handlers can feed, play with, or otherwise take care of individual pets to raise their happiness score - pets have a minimum happiness requirement for breeding, and a higher score between both parents grants a higher success rate; happiness would take multiple days to build up to maximum.

Potential Tweaks

1) Mitigated RNG: When you breed a pet, you'll gain a currency based on their rarity; your odds of breeding a SR pet increase for each point you have until you eventually breed a SR pet, it then resets.

2) Pets gain stats used for game-play elements. SR pets will be much easier to breed, but getting a SR pet with specific stats will be difficult.

3) Pets can be converted into a new system for use with new content - for example, X common pets yields 1 "content" pet.

4) Pets can be "Sent Away" where they complete missions based on a hidden score determined by their species and rarity; players will receive a reward after a delay, and the pet is lost forever.

5) Players lose all duplicates of pets, which are converted into a currency to buy special items in a one-off event; animal handling is then re-balanced entirely.

6) Breeding is removed entirely, and a new pet exchange is introduced; players can exchange a number of pets, which combine for a score, rolls a random variable, then yields a new pet. Pets will largely be created through gathering only.

Then, in combination with some of the ideas above:

Pets may gain additional functionality - they can join a team of other pets through their animal handler and embark on missions to yield rewards, based on their stats; this would very closely mimic the previously dropped "boat mission" system that was potentially going to be introduced during the Ocean Dome festival.

Finally:
Animal Handling code is.. rough right now. It's difficult to make changes without potentially breaking other areas of the site; an overhaul may occur, but it will likely take 2-3 months to complete so we need to ensure it's:
A) Something players actually want.
B) Going to have a positive outcome on the community.

Ultimately, I'm open to hearing any other designs - but please keep the specifics concise as possible - once we've a clear direction, we can look at detailing the specifics.

--------------
Just another potential idea I'll edit in, as it's been proven to work (Black Desert Online), and I wager it'd work out fairly well here:
- Males have two charges, females have one charge.
- Newly created pets can't breed for a week.
- Pets always generate a pet of the same tier or higher when bred together.
- You can exchange "depleted" pets for another breeding chance, but the parents are lost.


20 Dec 2017, 11:45 pm (Edited 20 Dec 2017, 11:45 pm)
Well I certainly wouldn’t recommend removing breeding entirely, I think that’s the worst possible thing to do and will result in the most community backlash
iPd97NZ.gifYbpLwur.png6retanN.gifYbpLwur.pngiPd97NZ.gif
BkvGbbz.gif™ |boBvjTb.gif|™ 5zBgwgn.gif
#48155
20 Dec 2017, 11:50 pm (Edited 20 Dec 2017, 11:56 pm)
A lot of these ideas look fantastic, I dont have much tosay except. the 5th idea in the tweaks category-

" Players lose all duplicates of pets, which are converted into a currency to buy special items in a one-off event; animal handling is then re-balanced entirely."

Is a horrible idea. Like, its not clear whether or not its impossible tohave duplicates at all? But. Some people work really hard to get EXTRA Super rares and such, or just want pets to match their villagers, and if they loose duplicates, that means they have to give up having that spot filled in the menagerie to fit the aesthetic they want on theirvillagers, that could also cause a lot of people to loose a source of income and profit.

Not to mention, there are harems people worked on, and have gotten multiple rare females lets say, taking away all but one of those is just mean, it takes a long time to build up a harem like that.
Also, there are rarer pets on the site like Beta bugs and feast pets, and wiping those would make it near impossible for new players to get any.

Im going to edit this later with the ideas i like the most, but im going to sleepnow
unknown.png
Source
~Silver~ 17~Forever tired artist~FV time~
20 Dec 2017, 11:51 pm (Edited 20 Dec 2017, 11:53 pm)
Ooh, I'm glad this has a thread up - glad to hear there are some changes!

Deleting breeding entirely would NOT be a good idea, and the idea of duplicate pets disappearing would also be abysmal. Perhaps for the latter you could have people decide to turn in their extras for special rewards? But it depends.

I do like the idea of increasing probability up until a SR, but I'd recommend that reset per family opposed to as a whole (ex: breed a certain number of bets bugs for the SR, but don't have to start all over for the fennec fox SR).

I personally like the first idea the best, but please, please, P L E A S E make sure it's obtainable for all types of players, not just the ones with excessive time and are super rich.
20 Dec 2017, 11:55 pm
I would second kroevolkture statement.

Options 1 from both seem like they would have the greatest success.
20 Dec 2017, 11:59 pm
Just quickly mentioning that they're just ideas and concepts - The implications of some may not be desirable, but it's still helpful to present them so people can at least consider them by contrast.

RedlaSunShowers029

Generally speaking the materials would come from the missions themselves in most cases.
21 Dec 2017, 12:01 am
Admin-Wisteria Ohh I gotcha. And those would be based on any pets you'd send out on missions?
21 Dec 2017, 12:01 am
I'd like to talk about the "mission-send-away" thing in particular... I think, paired with current rates of animal production, that wouldn't do much unless it asked for a MASSIVE amount of pets. We also shouldn't be giving out rewards unrelated to AH as a fix to AH, not quite yet... I think, if that 'mission' idea is taken seriously, it should require a massive amount of pets and give back the next rarity up as a reward, or items that would directly benefit breeding or animal production.

Personally I'm a huge fan of currency-based progression, and I'm not against RNG when it's not horribly unbalanced. I really like the ideas of Mitigation and Conversion, I'd even like them in tandem with one another.

I like the happiness idea, but... I feel like we'd need more reworks with the AH to make that viable. It's already a hassle just to find a specific pet in your sea of stables, and 100 clicks to make 50 pets. Now we'd have to play with them all? That's a lot of extra clicking and I think I'm already getting carpal tunnel.
gazimchamp
21 Dec 2017, 12:02 am
Maybe add Minipets to cooking and alchemy?
I'm not saying cook the Minipet to eat them I mean we've got food based minipets so it's around that idea but what if when the food went bad it became sentient?
MMjvS7y.png
21 Dec 2017, 12:02 am
yeah options 1 from both look really good

whatever you do though please dont do the following:

overhaul 3 (because it’s time consuming)
tweak 5 (duplicates are a good source of income)
tweak 6 (breeding is like. the centerpiece of ah or whatever analogy)

wouldnt recommend tweak 2 because that sounds suspiciously like rage fuel (see: pokemon competitive breeding. now try that WITH shiny chances)

additional functionality sounds cool
21 Dec 2017, 12:03 am
RedlaSunShowers029

It goes back to the boat concept - if you send out the "right team" you'll have a higher success rate on missions.

The specifics on this can be discussed later - but basically

"If X pet in your team has Y stat, then increase success by 50%" - The mission would otherwise have a 50% success rate (in the case of an "easy" mission), so it'd be largely about picking a group of pets that are well-rounded to maximum success.

Honestly this system is fairly generic, but it's a niche spot to add it to support existing content in a new way.
21 Dec 2017, 12:04 am
Over all, I really don't care much for breeding. I only do so from time to time because they're a limited pet or something.... Like the current snow pets; breeding them simply because it's an event pet that's very easy to breed over all.

I do over all think that there needs to be some kind of consumable when breeding pets or... just about anything. I feel, personally, that the only job that should be consumable free should be explorers. Every other job has some kind of consumable, or something that's needed in order to start doing something. For warriors, you need to find/make/buy equipment to get them running, but once they're up and running, it then hinges on warrior charges/warrior elixirs. Doctors and alchemists need plants and capsules/containers; Cooks, blacksmiths, crafters, herbalists all need things from explorers and warriors in order to function, and tailors need warriors/explorers and crafters in order to function. Animal husbandry is just in this really strange spot where nothing they do helps anyone else, and no one else can really supply them with anything. Yes Construction workers can make stables, but it only makes their job easier; they can and do work without them.

So I think that maybe there should be some explorer item that could be needed to breed, or maybe even something from the cooks; give them a use besides the feast/food drive. They're already cooking pumpkin cookies to help tame animals; why not add some kind of breeding biscuit or something that would be easy to make? At that point, you also open the doors to maybe having different tiers of food; cheap food is easy to make but results mostly in commons, where as rarer foods can result more likely in something better. I'm all for having jobs helping other jobs; I feel only Explorers should be exempt from being "helped" outside from doctors, as they're the kind of starting job for new users.

I do like the idea of trading in lots of a common thing for a rarer thing; even if it'd be sort of RNG based. Not ideal, but on a "fail", could always dispense some kind of currency that then makes the next roll much better, up until you've failed enough times that you literally can't fail at getting what you're trying to get.

I'd also love to see more things like the sweeticorn, giving some kind of bonus to villagers. I know people like to collect the pets, but once again, for someone like me that couldn't care less about collecting them besides the fact that they hold some kind of value from other users, adding small buffs on them would get me wanting to invest in getting some pets; maybe even trying to breed them myself. Maybe at worst it does a 1%/1 charge boost for particular jobs, and at best it does 5%/5 charges. This way it doesn't feel particularly broken; It's just a stacked costume at its absolute best, and at its worst it's "better than nothing" kinda deal.

So, I know there's a lot I didn't touch on that you said, Wisteria, but over all that's my two cents on the matter~
My green name means I'm a helper! What's a helper? Someone that wishes to help others out with knowledge about Furvilla! My favorite subject and where I have the most knowledge is with the warrior career! We are not staff members. If you need help with something, whether it be a bug or something greater, file a report or contact a moderator/admin
21 Dec 2017, 12:05 am
Admin-Wisteria Thank you for that elaboration. Think that might work depending on how it's executed!
21 Dec 2017, 12:08 am
Admin-Wisteria

Overhaul #1 sounds like it invalidates Animal Husbandry as a basic career- it become reliant on other careers like explorer and warrior but 2 and 3 both sound VERY interesting to me ,

Tweak 5 is awful don't do that
Like, there'd be no way to sell pets at all

Mitigated is interesting, I'd support it personally but I can see others not enjoying it.
Personally I'd appreciate #2 because I like SR for like, the appearance of them~
Sending away pets sounds like an amazing way to balance out excess pets! I have a trillion common sushi pandas that can hardly even be sold- that sounds like an amazing way to balance out the economy! Please do it!

Getting rid of the career would make a lot of people furious, not me particularly, but I can promise you they would...

Overall I really like the direction this seems to be heading! Thanks for finally giving this some input!

I still hope we get the DMM bugs fixed before we move onto new things though..
heck • boring nugget lady • Call me Lemons, Admiral, Drew, Hecking Nerd, or whatever ~<3

Just someone who wants ppl to be cozy like doggo and warm like mash potatoe
21 Dec 2017, 12:08 am
3) Pets have a "happiness" value that influences their breeding chances. Animal Handlers can feed, play with, or otherwise take care of individual pets to raise their happiness score - pets have a minimum happiness requirement for breeding, and a higher score between both parents grants a higher success rate; happiness would take multiple days to build up to maximum.


Given the current situation with animal handling right now is quantity > quality, I don't think this would be super realistic to implement (re:250 females to 1 male right now). It would have to be used in tandem with another tweak that limits the actual breeding and exponential growth of animals that seems to plague this career.

1) Mitigated RNG: When you breed a pet, you'll gain a currency based on their rarity; your odds of breeding a SR pet increase for each point you have until you eventually breed a SR pet, it then resets.

I like the idea of implementing some kind of point system. But I think it can be expanded upon to also be a pet sink.

2) Pets gain stats used for game-play elements. SR pets will be much easier to breed, but getting a SR pet with specific stats will be difficult.

I don't particularly like the idea of adding this type of RNG to the system. If getting an SR is already going to be difficult, it would only be frustrating to add another layer on top of that to get your "perfect" pet.
If we were going with stat buffs for animals, I'd opt instead for something like warrior's equipment crystals (for pets) that you can purchase through your suggested new pet currency.

5) Players lose all duplicates of pets, which are converted into a currency to buy special items in a one-off event; animal handling is then re-balanced entirely.

I don't really like the idea of completely killing off the animal trade market entirely. Especially with how the FDE animals are right now (which I still personally wish you didn't release 3-5 new ones in a single month).


6) Breeding is removed entirely, and a new pet exchange is introduced; players can exchange a number of pets, which combine for a score, rolls a random variable, then yields a new pet. Pets will largely be created through gathering only.

This idea doesn't really make sense to me? Gathering is already random, so this system is basically taking a bunch of random rolls for the purpose of obtaining another random roll. This system would make more sense if you kept breeding.

I don't mind adding new features like the gathering/pet exploration. My biggest concerns with AH right now are the tedium(mainly due to poor inventory management and breeding mechanic implementation), and the exponential growth of common pets with absolutely no pet sink. I don't mind the RNG aspect of breeding so much, but when combined with the previous two issues it becomes a greater problem. It's also an issue during time-based events like this TEP event. Especially last year where even using all your charges every single day could leave you with nothing.

I kicked Rukral out of the bungeon


21 Dec 2017, 12:08 am (Edited 21 Dec 2017, 12:11 am)
I'm surprised that increasing the odds of higher rarities based on the mother's rarity isn't on here; I'm out of the loop, is that confirmed never going to happen? It seems like a no-brainer to me, it's p. irritating that breeding extra uncommon/rare females is essentially useless.

I'm not a huge fan of the send away/mission system, and I'm against adding stats/other job benefits to minipets. I'm intrigued by overhaul 1, being able to pick your outcome with a material cost. It would be nice to turn the zillions of commons AH churns up into something besides 10 furgems each.
21 Dec 2017, 12:09 am
I am worried that overhauls might unnecessary complicate things and in addition make pet breeding too time consuming. But of offered options number 1 sounds best (2 - doesn't solve RNG problem, 3 - sounds very time consuming, while not very entertaining)

As for tweaks options:
1) sounds best
2) pretty indifferent to it at the moment, but not the worst option
3)-4) If I understand what these options offer, is mostly what already were meant to be solved by discard option and I am not sure it'll do more, than discard option did. Besides it doesn't solve RNG aspect present in current system
5) I am very wary of this option. What about FD Emporium Pets? What will determine their value? What if someone wanted duplicates as minipets for different villagers?
6) Sounds like a bad idea and it will still be RNG based, so...

So in short, I think it's best not to complicate things too much. Simply mitigating RNG in some way sounds good enough to me.
21 Dec 2017, 12:14 am (Edited 21 Dec 2017, 12:14 am)
six is a hell no for me. (same as five do not do it)
Though I would be interested in anything that makes SR's even slightly easier to breed for.
21 Dec 2017, 12:18 am
I actually like the AH breeding but the problem it has had for a long time is the absolutely horrendous RNG. Due to that I rarely ever actually remember to breed because it's just...aggravating with that RNG. Like right now with the snow pets...I've only gotten White. no dirty, no melting, no decorated. I like number 1 out of both. But at the same time I much much rather prefer the mitigated RNG over the item thing. At least with the mitigated RNG that will make it easier to breed the SR's but it's not going to cause the SR's to loose value as fast as the overhaul 1 would. One of course would produce SR's quite a bit faster then the other.

I defiantly would NOT like to see breeding go away and I could see where the stat specific type breeding would just cause rage and annoyance as well.

Now I would kinda like to see also pets giving boosts or bonuses to villagers. Especially the pets you set to your villagers. I don't interact with the pets because the reward is just so....abysmal. Perhaps has you level up your happiness of your pet it will increase how well it helps your villager. This would give those pets a purpose besides an FC dribble..
GNU: Terry Pratchett | Work 8 hrs a day every day no smartphone. Festivals make me headesk

21 Dec 2017, 12:20 am
Also I would not mind the pet conversion thing or sending pets away. It's so very hard to get anything from common pets it would be nice to have a system (beyond just recycling them) that would help to get them out of the economy and perhaps stabilize that!
GNU: Terry Pratchett | Work 8 hrs a day every day no smartphone. Festivals make me headesk

21 Dec 2017, 12:21 am
Admin-Wisteria

I would like some more clarification on number 5- I do stand by what I said - and by what a lot of people here said- about hating that idea and idea/tweak number 6.
It's taken me almost a year to build a harem of internet and security beta bugs. I would be mortified if I were to suddenly loose them- or loose the ability to try and breed for the rare and super rares.
21 Dec 2017, 12:24 am
I'm all for Tweak Number one so long as it'd be based off the family of the pet and not overall for all pets bred.
Cause I tend to breed multiple families in one day like Draggy for 25 charges and Chihuahuas for 25 charges, and wouldn't want to earn points on the Draggy's then have the Chihuahua pop a SR and my Draggy's reset. Cause certain pets take longer to breed with their cooldowns.
29/She/Her/Straight/Taken/Failed Genetic Experiment

"I have found... That there is such a thing... As too much information..."
- Hermaeus Mora, The Senile Scribbles

Meh... I'd rather play any other game than this one at this point.
21 Dec 2017, 12:28 am
Luckyclaw

It'd be viable to have two paths of progression - RNG & currency, so players have those options.

Kirurik

I'd like to, but it'd have to be done seperately to this - we're mostly looking at code here rather than item art. <_>

Lance-C-Bones

Economy-wise, it makes a lot of sense for animal-handling to have a "cost" so pets can't inflate infinitely, though it's a much harder issue to solve now than it would've been pre-beta.

Admiral_Catbuns

Not necessarily. We can keep the materials entirely animal-handling sourced, if desired, through the potential new gameplay mechanics - though that may not be flexible enough. Per Lance-C-Bones post, most other careers have an associated cost from other careers.

Wasteland_Wyvern

I'm not sure how viable it'd be to track per individual family for two reasons:
A) It would likely cause players inventories to overflow as they try to maintain a family of all pets at all times.
B) It may cause server lag trying to track that much extra information.

Either way we can look at ways to approach it once we've got a solid direction.

--------

I've gone ahead and scrapped tweaks 5 & 6 (not entirely unexpected) and added another comparison/idea to the original post.
21 Dec 2017, 12:29 am
Admin-Wisteria

Mmm fair point... Didn't think about inventory issues. Well I'm still all for tweak one. It sounds to me like the best option for the current system. ^_^
29/She/Her/Straight/Taken/Failed Genetic Experiment

"I have found... That there is such a thing... As too much information..."
- Hermaeus Mora, The Senile Scribbles

Meh... I'd rather play any other game than this one at this point.
21 Dec 2017, 12:33 am
Yaaaa..... Hindsight is always 20/20, hua? Over all as you said, nothing is probably going to take place for a few months at the earliest, so I was just throwing in my two cents. I'm not sure how long the warrior overhaul had been in the works, but I kinda feel that an "Animal Husbandry 2.0" is kinda inevitable at this point if we really want to fix things. It's unfortunate, but I personally feel that's the only way out of this mess....

Also unfortunate though to hear that changing some things within it could break other parts of the site; Ouch~
My green name means I'm a helper! What's a helper? Someone that wishes to help others out with knowledge about Furvilla! My favorite subject and where I have the most knowledge is with the warrior career! We are not staff members. If you need help with something, whether it be a bug or something greater, file a report or contact a moderator/admin